clive staples
My friend Kevin (who I confess is much wiser on this issue than I) gets really frustrated about this "emerging church movement." He thinks that the people involved are making up new theological ideas and he is frustrated because he thinks that the church should stand on the shoulders of our historical church fathers and not on people who are hip and trendy and writing interesting funny books today. We always get into arguments about this issue because I don't think that these "emerging pastors" are necessarily disagreeing with our founding church fathers, I think they are doing exactly the opposite - trying to take the church back to what our church fathers had at the very beginning. I think the church has changed SO much from what it was at the beginning. I think that these "postmodern pastors" are trying to get the church away from the awful t-shirts, Four Spiritual Laws tracts, WWJD bracelets and bring us back to what matters - loving God and loving people.
(Kevin, sorry if I have your opinion way screwed up - I'd love to chat more on this matter)
CS wasn't writing an extremely long time ago, but I consider him to be one of our "church fathers." (Sorry about all the quotes, but I'm just not sure what to call all the different people.)
I am obsessed with this passage from The Weight of Glory. I think that this passage takes us back to a little bit of what life and the church is all about...
"...It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may on one day be a creature which, if you say it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilisations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and expolit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendours...our charity must be a real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner - no mere tolerance...Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbour is the holiest object presented to your senses. If he is your Christian neighbor, he is holy in almost the same way, for in him also Christ vere latitat - the glorifier and the glirified, Glory Himself is truly hidden."
P.S. I am naming my first son Jack because of this man - I am obsessed
(Kevin, sorry if I have your opinion way screwed up - I'd love to chat more on this matter)
CS wasn't writing an extremely long time ago, but I consider him to be one of our "church fathers." (Sorry about all the quotes, but I'm just not sure what to call all the different people.)
I am obsessed with this passage from The Weight of Glory. I think that this passage takes us back to a little bit of what life and the church is all about...
"...It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may on one day be a creature which, if you say it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilisations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and expolit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendours...our charity must be a real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner - no mere tolerance...Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbour is the holiest object presented to your senses. If he is your Christian neighbor, he is holy in almost the same way, for in him also Christ vere latitat - the glorifier and the glirified, Glory Himself is truly hidden."
P.S. I am naming my first son Jack because of this man - I am obsessed
posted by jmjana @ 12:59 PM
7 Comments:
At 3:14 PM,
stef shaffer said…
i wonder what % of these people who freak out about the emergent stuff have actually been to one of the churches and sat down with the pastors of them and asked them about their vision. until then, i'm not sure that we can really see what they are trying to do (which in my opinion is to love people how Jesus calls us to love them).
At 9:35 PM,
ylmurph said…
I'm just throwing this out there... Most of the trendy, flavor of the month, emergent, post modern guys are putting themselves out there with books, videos, podcasts and speaking tours.
I'd say that whatever the % is - it shouldn't matter - these guys are putting ideas out there, and debating these issues is just the next natural step.
I'd also say that, having read and listened to a number of these guys, (are there any girls out there?) they tend to say things that naturally draw the ire of the reader/listener. They either do this on purpose (so who could blame people for getting stirred up?) or they don't know what they're doing...which would be disappointing, and probably isn't the case. Shock value is definitely alive and kicking.
...but what the heck do I know?
I'd also say that I tend to enjoy reading their perspectives...and Stef's right - their messages often come down to Loving Jesus and others.
At 4:59 PM,
Steve Fuller said…
1) There has always been, and will always be, a flavor of the month.
2) People will always argue, debate, and not like each other. It's in our messed up nature.
3) Sean Michael Murphy knows a lot.
4) I am also naming my son Jack, but mine is because of how cool Jack Bauer is on "24." And I'm not giving him a middle name, so when people ask, he gets to say, "Just Jack."
At 9:22 PM,
jmjana said…
steve,
if you are going to name your son jack after a tv persona you only have permission to name him jack as in "Jack" on LOST - the best show ever. well it used to be the best, but i still have faith it will redeem it self :)
At 7:57 AM,
Wes & McKenzie Brooks said…
this is an old topic but i just read it so i'm going to comment anyway. since kevin either never saw this or just didn't respond, i'll speak on his behalf, if that's alright.
i think kevin would tell you, first of all, that the church shouldn't necessarily stand on the shoulders of the church fathers, but instead on scripture. the reason the church fathers are so significant is that all the beliefs and doctrines they held were deeply rooted in scripture.
the only beef kevin, or i, or most others have who are wary of the post-modern movement, is that some of their writings and teachings tend to drift away from what is considered sound biblical teaching. the more they talk about loving god and loving others the better. its just when they start putting faith in man (ex. peter losing faith in himself while walking on water.. v.e.) or saying that there is no such thing as hell or that everyone is forgiven and we just need to live in that forgiveness. these ideas might make more sense to us and even make us feel warm and fuzzy inside, but they're not truth.
truth is what people are starving for. not a new perspective, but truth. not that a new perspective is bad. its great, as long as it is well grounded in scripture. and its true that no one i know has ever sat down and talked to an emergent pastor. but when they write books about what they believe you don't really need to sit down with one of them face to face to get an idea of where they are coming from. i can attest that kevin (since he is sort of who this topic was about) and others i know who are critical of the movement are familiar with a decent amount of post-modern literature.
anyway, let the post-moderners come and rid the world of wwjd bracelets and cheesey shirts, but lets keep our doctrine sound and our hearts close to the Word.
does that make sense? sometimes i wonder if anything i ever write makes sense.
i should also apologize in advance because my posts rarely come across as graceful.
last thing, as much as everyone loves the man, including myself, its a little bit of a stretch to say that cs lewis is a church father. he was more of an insightful philosopher than a sound theologian. he even said so himself. if you want to read something amazing by one of the "fathers" read confessions of st. augustine. you'll fall in love with it.
At 1:15 PM,
jmjana said…
wes, you are awesome
thanks for posting that and i TOTALLY agree with you - even though it may not sound like it in my blog. thanks for the insight
At 2:31 AM,
Anonymous said…
Jana-
I'm flattered that you wrote about me in your blog - to bad I didn't see it until just now. I think in some ways you have my point of view a little skewed, but Wes stated what I think fairly well. Obviously I hate Christian t-shirts, wwjd bracelets, cheesy Christian music etc...and I think it'd be inaccurate to assume that only the emerging church movement is against these things.
I'm totally for loving God and loving other people. I am also all for grace - by it we are given life, but at the same time we have to hold onto truth. There are bricks that our faith is built upon, even if Rob Bell doesn't think that is cool. Jesus really did live, and really did die, and really did rise from the grave. Jesus really was God. When Jesus died on the cross His death fully satisfied for all of my sins. These are bricks that I build my life upon, and if you were to remove one of them, my entire belief system would completely destruct. (Sorry if you haven't read Velvet Elvis)
My point is this, I have no problem with recontextualizing the Gospel for a new generation, in fact that is what I do for a profession and a mission and a life's work. My problem is when we deny core beliefs of the Christian faith that have been held for nearly 2000 years.
I think it also important to note that I don't hate bell, mclaren, or anyone else - but I do think they can be irresponsible and that at times they "do not handle the Word of truth correctly" in Paul's words. So I do think it is important for us examine what they are saying.
Ideas have consequences. When you start re-writing what the Bible says to make it relevant or emerging or whatever you are walking on shaky ground and you will easily find yourself backed into a corner trying to defend something that is not the truth. Rob bell states that hell is full of forgiven people. Now I've heard people defend this by saying "well, what he means is...he doesn't really mean exactly what he said...etc..." But if you take those words at face value, what does that say about God? God condemns innocent people to Hell. If so, then God is no longer just. That is a bold statement. Ideas have consequences.
And Stef, so you know, Brian McLaren never responded to my email, and neither did his publicist or anyone from his street team. It was a kind email too. And if you've ever read his books or interviews he always seeks to be vague and unclear and never will define his position. (probably b/c that is too modern of a thing to do) He even writes in the prolouges of his books that if the reader is going to disagree with what he says and critique his writings, then he'd rather not have you read his books. Sounds like a solid teacher who is confident of his message.
I am all for the greatest commandments. I base my life and my teaching around them. If that is all their teaching boils down to, I have no problem with it at all...in fact I'll echo their teachings and give their books to as many people as possible.
Here is a great article about the emerging movement...
http://theresurgence.com/great_freebies_on_the_emerging_church
hopefully that helps clarify my position.
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